I have already mentioned that with Alpine Meadows closed mid-week during our recent spring break, we chose to vacation in Puerto Vallarta. Little did I know that it was a good chance to get some first hand experience with branding and marketing in a resort environment. Our friends at KSL could learn a lot from AMResorts.
AMResorts opened the Secrets Vallarta Bay and the Now Amber in Puerto Vallarta in 2012. The resorts are nearly mirror images, at least on the surface. It was the first new hotel construction along Banderas Bay in ten years. Both resorts offer an all-inclusive experience that the AMResorts has labelled “Unlimited Luxury”. They even share some “behind the scenes” facilities such as kitchens and laundry. But the end product served to customers is quite a different experience.
We stayed at the Now Amber, which is geared toward families, young couples and singles. The pools and restaurants were full of young people, mostly with children, having the time of their lives on vacation. The entertainment staff ran continuous activities through the resort from sunrise to well past sunset. There was always music playing somewhere, and at the pool bar, you might be sitting next to a kid ordering a nonalcoholic Mudslide.
Just over the thick row of banana trees and ginger was the Secrets Vallarta Bay, where the sound of silence was all you heard all week. From our seventh floor balcony, we could see that people were sitting at the pool bar, and basking in loungers next to the pool. But Secrets has long been known as an adults-only resort chain. A slightly older crowd enjoyed their vacation free from the banter of small children and constant activities. Reportedly, those people also paid significantly more for the privilege.
Who was having a better vacation? Well we’re willing to bet that people from each resort felt like they had made the right choice for a vacation in Puerto Vallarta. Not everybody wants the same experience, and AMResorts gets it. Two very similar hotels, located right on the same property, with both offering different products for different vacationers.
Each hotel offers it’s own selection of restaurants and little elements of style, right down to the towel color. Each is identified by it’s own name, and everything is branded individually for the side by side resorts. Access between the resorts is very limited. During our stay, a couple of evening shows were shared by the resorts. We could also reserve a dinner meal at the neighboring resort, provided we did not bring children. We didn’t feel a need to do so, as it was just too quiet over there. It’s a formula that has worked well for AMResorts, with both hotels experiencing very solid occupancy rates. AMResorts is reportedly planning a couple of new dual resorts in Mexico in the next few years.
We would love to see KSL choose to operate Alpine Meadows and Squaw Valley as two independent mountains, that do indeed serve different markets, even though both offer skiing and riding on similar Tahoe terrain. Limited access to the other mountain was also a very popular choice in our Season Passholder Survey. There’s plenty of people that have been happy with Alpine Meadows being Alpine Meadows since 1961. We offer our sincere thanks to the Alpine Meadows employees and faithful that really seem to get it and have been pushing to keep it Alpine.
AM is definitely a different product like Coke or Pepsi is to Mtn Dew.
When I was talking to KSL people before the Sept/Oct revisions began – which caught FoSV by surprise – , they were looking at different styles and business modelling/contracts for different demograhic groups, though they were besotted by the Martis/Yellowstone Club model and stats that suggest the kids tell mom and pop where to go. Putting their eggs in differerent baskets is good for customers and for hedging risks imo. In what’s now phase 2 an area was supposed to be more for family budget types.
Given that KSL says IOV’s fate depends on KSL’s success, has anyone asked to see KSL’s business plan? For example, where do they know they’ll attract 300,000 people a year because of hi rises and a water park rather than great better lift ops and snow?
Thanks UA for stoke, pics and reports all updating those who can’t make meetings.
You were there today …. but you a bit closer to the lift than me.
Shedding light on some many jig saw bits in the entire region, just awesome.
More freealpine stickers were riding chairs with our pals from the Wood.
Nice to see IOV’s jamie and the SOV people, Coyote and Heidi drop in here to the enlighten us as well
Keep up the info stream.
The Truth is out there!
‘Fox Mulder’
I think FoSv misunderstand some of what’s proposed.
I think KSL are idiots if they don’t do something that’s obvious to me.
The “Realtors Wet Dream” , uum Wet Amenity, isn’t popular locally I heard because it, and 7 storeys, is toooo big
Can we plop those 16 storeys in front of the SOV owners’ $2m homes …. or is 2 to 7 storeys and free day parking liveable
I fear Squaw’ll ends up with 10-12 storeys on small footprints and paid parking if the clamouring crowd pushes the envelop too hard.
More lifting (eg Estelles) and better smarter in-tune lift ops (eg run Yellow and ABC) might be a good idea too,
The “Wet Amenity” is a ludicrous idea! That building is not only too big, takes too much water, it also takes away the view as one enters the meadow. I hope the DRC shoots that one down to the ground when the time comes and the guy with that idea jumps in the lake.
But Canadians flock to the wet amenity at Jay Peak for the real mountain experience.
Does Jay Peak have Lake Tahoe? 😉
But if Lake Tahoe has a Wet Amenity there’ll be 300,000 people rolling up to float in a lazy river, lie the Canadians who trek to Jay. Trust me. I know pension funds loved the idea, and they’re astute those pension funds are.
Why, I think teechers trust their pension funds, don’t you? 🙂
That would be “teachers” 😉
You may lauff (I am) but “Teachers” who can spelckeck wouldn’t be dum nough to invest in Squabble Valley 🙂
Where are check books of all the outraged folk in their million dollar mansions? Come on, they love the Right Plan because they know it’s right. It’s even called the Right Plan because it’s right.
A bunch of underfunded volunteers is beating SOV and KSL to a pulp! Shocking. The investors must be pension funds because no one else would get in this pickle.
If FoSv was smart, they wouldn’t crowdfund, they’d take bets from SOV 🙂
IOV is doing the crowd funding not FoSV. Get your facts straight!
Yep, Wirth’s letter said IOV was crowd-funding, not FOSV,
Save Olympic Valley are really ‘Save Our deVeloper”.
IOV aren’t a Wall Street Corporation.
Andy speaks for the community – he wrote that you know. (Who annointed him?)
And a big MAC is a burger with pickleballs.
Easy peasy!
Oops.SVSH’s letter to lafco/lapco blamed a Mt Rose skier for comments at a meeting.
Why didn’t SVSH blame
– models that looked lower than they’ll be
– those in SOV who are art of the 5000 – being people who left Base Camp muttering their real thoughts
– fosv, sierra watch, or transparent ads in the media
– whoever decided that 2nd homeowners can’t vote twice
– the united nations for inventing global warming 🙂
They raised 43% of the $25,000 they wanted from 93 people (less than a 5th of the 550 voters) despite some national press coverage.
what happened to the 11,000 polled in the “It’s too big” survey: $1 a head would’ve raised more.
where are the big bucks from the $1b of homes in the valley?
I’ve seen Vail Resorts try this in Europe and in two resorts in japan and one in New Zealand (connected to Copper, Crested Butte, Steamboat and Winterpark. The problem for Squaw Per Se is it’ needs AM. AM’s like Mom, always there to save tthe day. AM. is a safer bet in bad seasons that Shitty Shirleys and GC and Big Bloop Express. It’s viable on its own as a bread and butter stable sourse of cashflow. It props Squaw up. But it needs smarter top execs. Imagine if an exec saw the line and decided to open Roundhouse then and there. Imagine if they could get lifts open at 9am, not 11am. Jeez, Nstar and SB can open on time , but maybe they didb’t cut back Patrol by 60%. Or imagine they lifted Estelles and places just as the Survey suggested.
#freealpine and run it like a ski hill.
A ski hill is something you find in the Midwest. How about managing Alpine a like a mountain! When you understand what defines Alpine Meadows from other Northshore ski resorts, then you can build your brand. If the marketing team doesn’t get the concept then let’s remind em……
1. Family friendly
2. Terrain (side country)
3. Affordability (use to be)
4. Late season close
5. Great snow conditions and superb grooming
6. Great kid ski programs
7. Awesome employees
This is a partial list of the unique characteristics of Alpine and I’m sure there are a few more. Anyone?
The AM logo is very well known and the color green has been the branding color for decades, why change now?
JMA used the term “We know what your thinking!” does KSL know what we are thinking?
I AM Alpine Meadows…remember that slogan? We are not Squaw Valley, so please pass me a Mountain Dew and my friend will take a hot, black Al’s coffee.
#FreeAlpine
No, I remember he said SV and Am are two mountain rorts, not resorts. Or is my hearing aide is on the fritz 🙂
Gilligan,
there was a post about 10 things we like about AM. KSL should read it.
KSL should look at a op ed written in the Sierra Sun/tdt by Elfrin (? spelling) too.
– The Skipper.
If you can ski Estelle, then you can hike it! How about they turn on a lift that is already built and just stands there idle all the time (ABC). ?
Mark,
Great to hear RH will run! Thanks UA for being a voice in the valley, and thanks KSL. too
Hey, did SOV suggest that idea or are they a one issue bandwagon?
For Pete’s sake, with all the $ backing them, you’d think they’d do better 🙂
“Transit service shall be grounds for such a variance only if limitations on ticket sales to persons arriving by private automobiles are in effect. ”
Welcome to Dear Valley Utaaargh people!
This cures lift lines on powder days – locals either buy a permit for a parking bay catch the bus or go park at the Audi Mercedes Parking Lot
There’ll be nothing left if these FOSV people succeed even if they find water.
did these Colorodeans realise the Cali flag has a Red Star and the bear is walking on a sliver of green tape?
Only the paranoid would say an unborn town group is out to get them. Reality is this. KSL took a bet on a what it’ll achieve, and they’ll lose. Not a sod will turn in 5 years and they’ll walk.
Regarding public parking, in the article below the man himself says the mass bus system was unsustainable at an average $55 per passenger.
http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/northshore/7185379-113/squaw-transportation-valley-effort
What an amazing story for the history books.
The buses ‘crashed’ and now KSL need more car parking and less buildings.
I hope KSL don’t build a 10 level carpark.
In the history book I hope the FBI and SEC articles are next to SOV’s big advertisements.
I blame those stockholders. It mystifies me why VR would help KSL build more real estate in the region on a better mtn than Vail has down the road. Btw I love the Nstar bus will wait at the Valet Parking area for us epicpass holders 🙂
AM needs legendary executives we can see, not mythical ones.
#Freealpine.
Tess, the new style is they bring in changes and they hope you notice. In contrast was the uncool olde skool style of seeing your customers, pulling a beer for them, or upselling stuff softly in the breezeway. “Good morning” “Can I help you” “Have a sticker”, “There’s the cafe and Estelles”, that sort of thing.
Or look at Bill Rock’s thank you in the newspaper, or VR’s 2% wage rise in a bad season, or Mammoth’s lead with a food bank when the work was cut a few years ago. That’s soul. At least KSL reads UA and turned Roundhouse ‘on’ and they look like they’ve ditched the idea to rebrand AM as SquallyMeadow. shame they tried the stupid ads in the Sierra Sun.
For those who don’t do Facebook, Heidi responds to FOSV’s car parking issues:
“Heidi Maier Deveau The general plan from long ago sounds like it doesn’t reward for mass transit. Is this really the direction we want to be going in? Environmentally speaking.
“Question: 10000 skiers is that a total number or is that just the ones driving in?
“Can you clarify that number?
“Does that take into account the many staying on site?
“Preferred Parking? Will there be preferred parking???
“Could we encourage more people who are in walking distance to walk to the mountain?
“The MAC is going to be used in conjunction with the ski day and the people are already parked.
“I would also guess it will get used more in the shoulder seasons and summer.
“That 300000 number sounds really big to throw around. But over the course of the year it could help the retailers keep their people employed and fill an empty parking lot during the summer.
“Plus some if those visitors are already staying at the mountain and have parking in conjunction with their accommodations.”
What’s your assessment of this?
$25 to $290 per occupied bus seat in operational costs is a bit much, isn’t it Heidi? $
7,500,000 for bus metal is a bit rich too.
It’d be cheaper to give travellers the use of a limo service.
Placer and Squaw can’t afford it after Northstar – they’re owned by a multi billion dollar mega company with experts and deep pockets – pulled out.
So did Washoe and Hyatt Incline: I think Hyatt is rich.
Placer scaled back its checks, and it has $30,000,000 in outstanding debt and a Aa3 rating by Moodies.
Homewood chips in $2500.
KSL should ask teachers pension plans for long term subsidization or come up with a smarter plan.
The litany of cascading boo boos and missed opportunities are astounding.
According to facebook post, heidi says IOV aren’t anti-development. IOV isn’t born yet.
Those who support the idea of townhood simply want a say -look at the Tahoe TV show a year ago Heidi – when dealing with the developers who are still conceptualizing. Yes, in all these years and after all the expense, they’re still wondering what the heck to do. I hope the investors know
I’m confused. On FB Heidi says the proposed Plumpjack is too tall and not quite right, however her SOV group looks like they think KSL’s 7 storeys is fine, presumably. Then we have Plumpjack’s ‘style’ which’l date, Resort at SC’s contemporay style that won’t date, and the new ticket area which’ll back onto a 7 storey ‘log cabin’ style next to Intrawest’s mock euro style. All next to a giant Costco-style big barn thing. Next to a big transit center perhaps?
It’ll be an interesting tapestry.
http://unofficialalpine.com/?p=2030#comment-7676
Obviously some haven’t followed SqAm’s fasest growing blog.
15,000 reads a month last year + the 300% increase is how many?
Ben – KSL didn’t know about UA and I see SOV people look like they don’t know as much as they think. Look at this way, there’s not one suggestion about disable parking, employees, military, day parkers etc by people who couldn’t see the DRC notes a mere inch under their own facebook post. Me me me. Their full of fluff, not facts. Then they have the temerity to say they should be the leading body in the valley …and leave everything to Placer County and 2 water boards. ..and the TC Business chamber …and the stockholders common to “competitors”. …and committees they’re on. Hmmm. Gaffney’s nose is worth trusting.
Where are the disabled parking places that’ll come when car places are striped.
Where’s the preferred parking? On Heidi’s front lawn the way KSL are going.
KSL should go back and review what was discussed years ago however the short change money holds are killing them. If the investors lawyers and town planning lawyers ever go through the history and the penny pinching short cuts, heads will roll. Sheese, KSL are done like a dinner by a bunch who can barely raise $9000 with a nation wide crowd funding effort. How embarrassing for KSL!
Why aren’t SOV out there in the facebook world demanding disabled parking and plenty of free day parking?
Heidi thinks buses are good for the environment yet the real reason for these buses is to make Squaw into a parking lot for gas guzzling bay area Escalades.
I think the community owes a big debt of gratitute to Robb for speaking up.
Are Save Olympic Valley overlooking tour buses and visiting ski clubs, as well as the disabled?
How about Military discounts/free parking bays, SOV.
All i hear so far is “What’s in it for me” – wasn’t he the guy who sent 300 emails out against IOV? He should ask the IRS for tax advice: he can catch the bus to their Oakland’s office.
Friends of OV shouldn’t forget tour buses or forget that Amador were excluded from the bus pilot scheme. (I’m sure Davis knows that: he knows and understands more than the locals. Btw, when was the last time he caught the bus?).
Can you ask Gary Davis’ chamber of commerce about buses for tourists with suitcases and ski bags and kids gear. My last cab fare from Squaw to a casino at Stateline was $80 and that makes nth lake lodgings really expensive.
These Self Obsorbed Village people need to get on the bus for a reality check.
The Selfish Old Valleyers are like sodapops: transparent and full of air and aspartate. The fake sugar with the bitter aftertaste.
The sooner KSL dumps the Koolaid dispensers and works something out, the better.
What say you.
SOV’s poster says ‘some’ locals just don’t know or understand.
What don’t we know or understand???
What does he know and understand.
Enlighten me. 🙂
rofl.
I hope the SOV lady ain’t serious about preferred parking as the ‘solution’ to traffic.
Did they get the idea at the secret meeting on April 4 or have the SOV brains trust invented this all on their own?
Enlighten us.
What a thread!!!!
It’s simple. There’s facts and documents all over the web to reinforce the need to see a very sustainable mass transt system BEFORE carparks become half empty condos for half the season.
This is FoSV’s simple response to a simple issue (below). If these SOV people are against township they should stop inventing unsupported half baked “questions”.They’re transparent. They’re scared.
Heidi, our position on mass transit alleviating some of the parking requirements is only that it needs to prove itself before allowing the action to be taken. We are not against mass transit, in fact are very much in favor of it, but we are skeptical (as evidence to date has shown) that it will be used by the public rather than then driving into the valley. It needs to provide some tangible benefits. Therefore just specifying that something will be put into place (“if you build it they will come”) is not sufficient. There are many years yet before building commences, so let the plan be tested, as they have said they will do in the past.
The Specific Plan (CP-10, CP-13, and page 5-6) states the goal of parking as providing “adequate parking to accommodate skiers within all but the 4 busiest ski days”. This number (the number of day skiers on the 5th busiest day) has been determined to be 10,663 day skiers. It does not specify what percentage of day skiers are driving in, versus “walking in”. So, our position is that, since this is a parking requirement and there is no clarification provided, that this is a parking requirement for 10,663 “driving in” day skiers. And from this, our position develops that the goal in CP-13 of 3100 parking places is totally inadequate to accommodate that number. It is assumed as well, and confirmed from the developers’ comments, that the desire is not to discourage “driving in” day skiers. So that even as day skiers from residence units increase, the number of “driving in” skiers will remain the same as today.
The issue of the MAC users taking up parking places is key, and has to be addressed. But the comments so far is that it will be addressed as an operational issue (eg limiting hours, etc), not an entitlement issue. Therefore the design guidelines have to specify this (as we have done) to get this requirement in as part of the entitlements.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · Yesterday at 3:16am
not!,
When I was a casual teacher of high school students in night class at $50/hour, I could afford preferred parking. These days however I’d have to be a kindergarten teacher on the big bucks to afford it.
The kids will have cars too.
“Encourage” walkers …in ski boots? Where are the affordable lockers for spare shoes. The Nop is patheticly short on detail and vision.
How come these SOV people ‘forget’ other groups, like the disabled parking, ped traffic across SV Road, etc, when trying to graple with ‘solutions’ to ….concerns with people who have thought things out, researched available facts, and maybe would’ve have dirt turning by now.
Nothing in FoSv or IOV’s or DRC concise summaries are ‘new’ issues. KSL should’ve obtained reports, designed properly, and consulted. ‘Selling’ a lemon with a slogan doesn’t work. make lemonade and people will accept it.
I may be short sighted but let’s see:
KSL didn’t listen.
The pilot bus scheme cost $7.5m for bus metal + $350,000 from Washoe (who pulled out) + $ from Northstar (whose investors don’t want to make Squaw richer) + $ from Hyatt (who pulled out) + Placer (who must be rich) + a pathetic $2500 from Homewood (who are building $400m of condos so they’re short right now). Does SOV have the capital start up costs + operation costs for a mere 3500 pax a year despite 90,000 bums on plane seats a year into Reno.
The Fanny Bridge isn’t structurally sound for the traffic at that $5m shiny car park. Where are the cars and buses gonna drive?
So the USFS has to create a new road, – which is years away. Got a spare $70m: the work oat Tahoma was $34m and you need twice that amount.
Light rail is just on the agenda again. Boy I’d be pissed if I was an investor in KSL and knew wtf wasn’t done in a timely manner. FoSV are so predictable, you have wonder why FoSV, with their paltry $9,000 in crowd funding, are ahead of seasoned expert developers.
The $200,000 upgrade at the Truckee Station ain’t big enough, and the parking at the new place on the rail line is for Truckee Shoppers, not day trippers.
The Truckee Airport was to be a campus and the new HQ for Clear Capital, and you missed that opp. Have KSL ever succeeded. Wait, where was that place they packed up and left, unloved.
So what should KSL do? Who did their due diligence in there?
Ski resorts market big — more acreage, more vertical, more snow, etc. Beach resorts don’t. Two mirror image beach resorts with different marketing foci increase the potential visitor pool.
Yes the ability to say we have 6000 acres of skiing is the point. We get that. But at some point it just gets ridiculously misleading. Its similar to saying that the TSP gives you 4 resorts.
The advertising never seems to indicate that the 6000 acres are separated by a 10 minute shuttle ride and often a wait for a shuttle with enough room.
At UA, we’ve always been about encouraging something different. Doing things differently is one of the things Alpine does best.
This is a fascinating thread. One of the KSL themes that keeps coming back to me is making SV a “world class” resort. A world class resort is not made by condos and hotels. It is made from great skiing, and the rest follows. I spent four weeks in France and Switzerland this winter, skiing both world-class resorts (Verbier, Chamonix, Val d’Isere), and smaller, unheard of mountains like Valfrejus and les Contamines. A few observations: even the smallest of these have upwards of 4-5,000 vert, and dozens of lifts. You could lose SV in a place like Val d’Isere (twice the vert, ten times the acreage, 300 km of groomers alone). Most of these places top out at 10-11,000 ft or more, hence more reliable snow. At a place like Verbier or Val/Tignes, it can take most of the day to go from one end of the resort area to the other. Most days, with an hour of so of touring or hiking, we might get in two runs (of 5-6000 Vert). Show me a place at Squaw or Alpine where I can get in 50-100 powder turns without stop.
So, as much as I love Alpine (and for that matter, even Squaw), we are never going to be in the same class as these areas, no matter how many condos are built. The sooner KSL recognizes that fact, the sooner they can focus on improving the experience for the things that matter…the mountain, not the condos. Sure, Squaw needs more housing…the village is an unfinished work in process. But water parks? Luxe hotels? Forget about it.
Lift prices are another stunner. I wish I could post a photo I took of the lift and pass prices at Val d’Isere (one of the most expensive places), but a six-day pass will run you 250 Euros (about $300, or $50/day). We spent a week doing side- and back-country skiing in the Maurienne Valley, a marvelously undiscovered (by foreigners) region with half a dozen “small” resorts (most nonetheless as big or bigger than Squalpine). The most expensive day pass was 30 Euros ($40). One other cool thing: you can buy a “randonnee” pass for a single ride to the summit for about $10. How much does a ticket on the tram cost?
So KSL should drop this “world class” delusion and get on with making the experience as marvelous as it should be. We will always be what we are…two great mid-size mountains with great terrain and very different experiences. The best skiing in northern California, hands down. But “world class?”
Love the thread too
KSL want to do ‘everything’ but, as Clint Eastwood said, every man must know his limitations. Andy has vision and skills but there’s something wrong inside SVSH/KSL.
i heard VR might do a wet enmity too. Does KSL really think the Waterpark and glitzy condos will draw the average billionaires in? have they stress tested their figures?
…tonight at the DRC they’re still planning tubes, kayakes and a lazy river, bowling alley and movie theater ….not a word on lifting or smart things.
They closed the air hockey arcade for the kids, the cinema in TC closed in the age of onlne movies ….but they want to attract kids to a lazy river???
are these KSL people in tune with any of the groups in Squaw (apart from the Save Our Property Values group)????
I hope KSL didn’t rely on an assurance from the County to the effect they’d change zonings and waive town planning requirements. I ask because, on my reading of the Golana Case, KSL are bound to go back to the drawing board if a future town lodging its application before KSL applied to the County: – and IOV beat them to the punch if I recall right.
Someone has a lot of explaining to do to their investors, and I notice the “politicking’ by SOV just isn’t up to par either.
If you look at the history of truckee on facebook feeds, 78% approved Truckee and it carried $32m of roadwork debt as well. Did that hewlett packard guy really stress-test his “concerns” because I smell the same thing Gaffney did.
The county official looked exasperated when Sierra Watch spoke while the other older official looked stunned when he couldn’t wrest control from the audience and Judi Carini.
At least Hosea turned up even though KSL didn’t invite “dissenters” to the secret meeting :).
One committee member, (Staples?) noted that log cabins aren’t 7 storys high and don’t have the snow shed that KSL’s steeped pitch rooves do: how much does 108′ high snow shed weigh at top velocity. Wear a helmet people!
Hosea sounded interested in the recycled water ideas and talk about glass and berms, however you have to ask why these ideas aren’t known to expert designers ??????
Is it true they still don’t know if they can snowmake Shirleys?
I don’t think Save Olympic Valley people were there which is a shame as they might learn something.
By what SOV’s spokelady says, SOV needs figures from FOSV because (I assume) SOV don’t have KSL’s traffic studies. How peculiar. And SOV – whoever they are – want to lead the valley? Really.
They hired an expert from Amex and Hilton, and she’s prolly passed Marketing 101 and a PhD in “Spin Doctoring”.
Are they looking at an Accor, Starwood, Marriott type model to fill rooms with renters for a management fee?
I remember Tom Day on the tv said they used google one day and they decided to call Lafco. Lol.
Doesn’t anyone feel sorry for the dilemma they’re in. (:
They already lost of third of about $1b and the FOSV proposals identify all the things prudent developers should’ve investigated on day one.
Do you think they’ll cut it down more?
It is kindergarten kids over there.
I feel sorry for Save Our Valuations.
Kathleen sure knows her water history.
http://www.usbr.gov/history/OralHistories/EAGAN,%20KATHLEEN%20MASTER,%20I,%20CIT,%20NF,%20S,%20OC,%20AE-DBS,%20HI,%20HC,%20F.pdf
Can someone from Sierra Watch or FoSV come along and ask what’s going on with the 8 mile pipe? Is the pipe really only for emergencies or is it a way to help all sorts of developers build mcmansions all over every inch?
The link around page 15 I think says Truckee inherited roadwork debt when it incorporated.
Perhaps SOV should take a lesson on good governance, unlike that computer company which pension funds qouted alongside Enron in submissions to politicians.
For your convenience, Heidi, look at pages 15 or 17, and you’ll see Truckee grew despite inheriting a huge roadworks deal. Hope you can make the IOV Meeting on the 6th.
Be assured the supporters of town ship really just after a local say.
The history is very very interesting, and I thank you for making it easy to find the relevant passage, Mr Truckee.
I think it’s nice to say please and thank you, which is rare these days don’t you think? So a big thank you to you.
Sincerely
Bert & Ern.
Why thank you, you’re welcome, Bert and Ern.
T’is nice to receive thanks when saving enquiries a lot of reading in their quest for knowledge. Do you think the quest for knowledge was belated and disgenious?
Did they find endangered cutthoat trout, the newly discovered endangered yellow frog, the archeological artifacts buried near the Lot 4, or the antient toys closer to Well #1.
Chevis really liked a lot of common sense ideas at the DRC tonight but you have to ask yourself why these obvious things are news to them.
The employees are, I heard, to be in dorm style lodging and pay rent. wtf? If I was an employee I’d be voting for IOV and I’d be asking IOV to deed restrict it, make it for Americans and be rent controlled. Can IOV save employees from corporate greed? Look at it this way – KSL needs employees there on a storm day to turn on lifts like Yellow or ABC, patrol, avi bomb, staff kitchens.
And cant’t they move the Receiving to 7/11, or put employees in the village where they can patronise businesses in the morning and evening?
KSL needs help. They’re still at the ‘conceptual stage’ whilst North Korea and Sochi and China built whoe freaking sk resorts!
Love
‘Kim Il Jong’
Mark,
I hear KSL publicly admitted they didn’t have research to back up why they decided to build a 250 bed Dorm for (J1?) employees.
Please I can’t believe expert billion dollar expert whizzes a) want a dorm and b) don’t know how they plucked 250 out of the air.
Isn’t planning law that mandates a minimum number of low cost ‘housing’?
Are other figures plucked from the air?
The investors surely are scratching their heads, don’t you think?
Are Minutes admisible evidence about whatever ‘isn’t’ progressing with KSL?
One of Branson’s former close people said he was always nervous about predictions he put to boards so he cut the promises back 2/3rds – I I was wondering what KSL’s investors were advised they’d get realistically and by when. The whole affair sounds like a circus!
“Krusty” 🙂
How can you predict 300,000 will come to Squaw to see a non existent home furnishings store and go to a water amenity that hasn’t been conceptualised.
Cheers Bud.
Kim,
KSL had the option to build that pretty much in the village and at a few ‘better’ locations that Lot 4, but they then missed oportunities or decided to look at other areas too. Or they need a fatter checkbook or smarter execs because look at what the DRC and FoSV are saying now. Youch, there’s got to be a proven mass transit scheme in place or more parking ON TOP OF the 50% open space the county rules madate. What a skiaster as the villagers arm themselves with pitchforks because of those ‘Stir Our Villagers’ ads.
Really informative meeting Mark.
The top planning man wasn’t happy when the audience wanted to hear more from Judi Carini.
At least Hosea Chevis (or is it Chevis Hosea) and Katie L. listened intently to the audience in question time and afterwards.
I think KSL sat up and took notes when these ideas – from UA threads woot woot – were ventilated, like grey water, rooftop ideas and clean green solar and gardens and ‘camoflague’ the buildings
Btw, the wet amenity is on the plans still. They’re thinking bowling alleys, movies and a lazy river with kayaks and tubes. What do you think about transplanting a Jay Peak place as an attraction????
Please ask your journalists to cover these meetings because things are happening man.
thanks for the reports guys.
shame they don’t live stream the meetings but at least they’re not ‘invite only’ like Sovs.
I didn’t notice if the Sov folks came to the meeting.
Could that explain why, on facebook, they ask questions that UA readers asked ages ago?
It’s a shame Chevis didn’t enlighten the DRC Meeting concerning the numbers that befuddle SOV’s lass, Heidi on her facebook ‘postings’.
Save Olympic Valley and KSL sure saw tonight what they’re up against. I’m stunned the KSL people are only “conceptualising” at the moment! If I was an investor I’d be asking my lawyers what they thought.
Peter Van Zand and the FoSv’s Ed Heneveld also spoke very well again, as did Judi Carini, to an audience of at least 50 of the voters. Questions were instructive and informative, ideas raised were warmly embraced too.
When on earth are these “brilliant” KSL people going to sit down and talk lift operations, opening on time and making Squaw a world class resort? There’s more to a ski resort than home furnshing stores and $1 Coors Lights you now.
on FoSV’s FB page that some locals don’t understand and don’t know things, however I think we know lots more than he realizes.
If the SOV ever come to DRC meetings, can someone ask them what #freelalpine means? 🙂
Great dialogue over on fosv’s facebook page as Heidi chimed in. These SOV people have a lot of catching up to do don’t they.
“Heidi, our position on mass transit alleviating some of the parking requirements is only that it needs to prove itself before allowing the action to be taken. We are not against mass transit, in fact are very much in favor of it, but we are skeptical (as evidence to date has shown) that it will be used by the public rather than then driving into the valley. It needs to provide some tangible benefits. Therefore just specifying that something will be put into place (“if you build it they will come”) is not sufficient. There are many years yet before building commences, so let the plan be tested, as they have said they will do in the past.
The Specific Plan (CP-10, CP-13, and page 5-6) states the goal of parking as providing “adequate parking to accommodate skiers within all but the 4 busiest ski days”. This number (the number of day skiers on the 5th busiest day) has been determined to be 10,663 day skiers. It does not specify what percentage of day skiers are driving in, versus “walking in”. So, our position is that, since this is a parking requirement and there is no clarification provided, that this is a parking requirement for 10,663 “driving in” day skiers. And from this, our position develops that the goal in CP-13 of 3100 parking places is totally inadequate to accommodate that number. It is assumed as well, and confirmed from the developers’ comments, that the desire is not to discourage “driving in” day skiers. So that even as day skiers from residence units increase, the number of “driving in” skiers will remain the same as today.
The issue of the MAC users taking up parking places is key, and has to be addressed. But the comments so far is that it will be addressed as an operational issue (eg limiting hours, etc), not an entitlement issue. Therefore the design guidelines have to specify this (as we have done) to get this requirement in as part of the entitlements.
Like · Reply ·”
We knew that. The question is why didn’t SOV?
Oh yeah, they don’t go to the meetings, but everything was on UA anyway, free, on the net. FoSV and iOV are also free from the comfort of your loungeroom. DRC Minutes are free on facebook. The NOP and Spec Plan are on FOSV’s sites too.
Really! Yet they have the gall to put up “testimonials” and appear in full page ads with “questions”.
Rofl: Hidden Loot Road. Freudian typo I think 🙂
Gotta say heidi has a point or two,
but who gives a testimonial about villages, planes, trains, automobiles etc etc. but can’t get to 3 meetings over 100 days per season and can’t find Notes on FOSC,IOV, Facebook, and the Library.
Can we see everything the Hewlett Packard guy ‘looked in’?
Well with 7 hours to go until the crowdfunding ends IOV are nudging under half with 100 people out of maybe 550 voters.
Meantime over at the NLT Resort Association, they’re spending big bucks on marketing.
Is it true that Placer takes $697,000 out of the Valley so ski resorts can market ski resorts? I’m sure $697,000 could be put to better use.
Right on, $697k that’s a lot of money for the valley. Hey, if they let the resorts like Nstar and SV pay for their own advertising, we could spend the $697,000 on full page advertisements like save our Valuations.
Who cares about disabled winter sports, food banks for furloughed employees who live in cars and tents, or maybe helping normal local kids afford teams or go to the Podium. We can buy rickshaws and save our valley for the Bay Area Escalades. We can’t have SUVs parked out in the cold at night 🙂
Ask not what your valuer can do for you, ask what can you do for your valuer.
Says Heidi from Sov, “This is awesome. Thanks for being a voice with solutions. This type of planning takes a lot of time and energy. Much appreciated to those who wrote the NOP letters and worked to create this feedback.”
But can someone put these SOV on a Debate where we the public can test SOV’s ‘solutions’. Al i see are their full page advertisements with claims they know best. I think they should put up their ideas to serious questioning.
“Thanks for being a voice with solutions” says SOV’s spokesperson, Heidi.
Good to see another open mind has swung behind FoSV. !!!!
Now if only we can get the rest of SOV to look past their property values into issues with disabled parking, decent employee lodging, car-less locals, etc.
Lots of interesting ‘brown baggers’ in this list compiled by Moonshine Ink.
(SOV sound out of touch. ‘Save Our Valuation’ is a better name I think, don’t you? When the Cantina goes, what then?)
http://www.moonshineink.com/mountain-life/tightening-suspenders
Hey I was sincere that I was thankful of the time Friends of Squaw has put in to speak up in this discussion about the development. But reading this – maybe I should hate them??? I think I am being mocked here but frankly can’t get a read on this discussion. And maybe my little dream of reducing the carbon footprint in some way is ridiculous and you all have all the answers. The reason that I have not attended any of these meetings is that I am a second homeowner and am only there on weekends. All the meetings are held during the week. But now thinking about it, with all this world of hate-maybe the whole resort should fall into the creek and float away. But then that would pollute the creek. So I’m screwed whatever I do?
Hey it’s awesome to see you’ve chimed in.
Most of us are miles away too.
If you go thru the threads you’ll see ‘secret’ things surface much later: the infamous ‘100 houses of water” revelation by the Water Board is an example: the water board later admitted before Xmas that the public may be misled by public statements. We already knew that. There’s lots of other things too: like KSL building over easements, shopping for car parks and buses falling off fiscal cliffs. We even read about the FBI SEC IRSI case press releases about HP and Russians, Mexicans etc., and we think IOV’s figures stack up. As the water guru was looking for grants, we knew about the $800m water grants and Infrstructure Financing Districts and 8 mile pipes etc etc before lots of local experts did. . Re transit and cars, how can counties sustain $290 per passenger? Well they didn’t: and I suspect Vail stockholders don’t want to help KSL build more apartments which it can only do if it gets to build over the aquifer.
The whole process is a mess! KSL has its own reports. FoSv has their figures: eg extrapolate Andy’s car occupancy rate. Architects didn’t tell “John” how many spaces they had. The car spaces in plans (in the bottom right corner) didn’t tally, and KSL wanted to build on Easements!
Facts need to go on the table. Parties need to look at the ripple effects, devise bricks in a way they can all live with.
Oh and BTW- Preferred Parking can’t be on our lawn… we don’t have a lawn. Just native plants.
For 50 years we used the 80 acres without fee, without terms, without a licence or objection. Can someone fill us in on what rights accrue under those circumstances?
lol. 🙂
How much carbon and pollution goes into a mega building over 15-20 years?
How much would be saved by only allowing 80 acres of Escalades to park under 80 acres of private jaccuzzis?
What happened to the Tesla Superstation, the purification plant, and the recycling water plant like the one Bear Mtn Pen has EPA approval for?
What happened to the ‘snow train’ light rail project.
Why were Amador buses cut out of participation?
Why not build modular off site and just assemble buildings like a lego set?
Where are the traffic and other reports: you don’t design something without reports
Where will the poop go if pipes over the aquifer break due to a siesmic event, even a small one
Has the 25% water leak been found and fixed, and imagine if that was poo leaking into the water supply.
Who is going to fund that mass transit idea and what happens if, like Sth shore, it goes belly up.
Please, before SOV publishes more ‘questions’ about IOV’s figures , propose viable costed solutions.
SOV are large on fluffy transparent “questions” and short on anything remotely resembling cold hard facts.
Perhaps they can post KSL’s reports on facebook to enlighten us.
By the way, what cross border water federal issues go to a enviro-planning court in Washington?
I’d like to know who was the 500 pound gorilla who decided that SOV was a smart thing to do.
The voters are IN the Valley, not in TDT’s catchment.
The voters go to DRC & Mac Meetings.
The voters stand in long lift lines, and talk.
The voters also read up in great balanced media outlets such as Moonshine Ink and UA.
The locals also don’t put blind faith in personalities or full page ads.
The locals can see thru more detritus than remote 2nd home owners from the Bay.
SOV’s drivel is poking an ant hill.
If they’re worried about a few dumbed down yokels, wait until Sierra Groups pounce .
Sov’s ok. Let them play politics.
Did you know the $800m grants are coming for innovative climate change initiatives? You should ask the water board guys if they went and met the Commissioner and looked at solutions instead of drawing up advertestosteronials for the Sun.
Did you see anyone from Squaw at the function with the commissioner? Or the Enviro Taskforce?
For SOV’s Sake! SOV are wet behind the ears.
http://unofficialalpine.com/?p=3593#comment-15049
Dear UA.
SOV claim there aren’t enough talented people in the valley to run a town. What, are they serious? Who are these SOV? I haven’t seen them post up one solitary single fact, only scaremorngering disguised as ‘questions’.
SOV should go to DRC meetings and assess the depth of talent, or talk to the retired Professor of Architecture at Berkeley, Vlad. Listen to the FOSV ladies or speak to locals on the water boards. There are many many talented people, with facts like those SOV never mention.
As for intra village shuttle, will it go up Hidden Loot Road?
The taxi idea sounds desperate.
SOV have experts and they should review real information rather than portray themselves as they’re coming across.
Why hasn’t KSL/SVSH filled their ambassorial testimonial people on things like mass transit. !!! Aaargh.
This issue has perplexed and vexed people for decades – remember Cushing wished to pave the whole meadow however Wayne Snr stopped him. No not Bruce Wayne Snr, the other one!.
Btw Heidi, I don’t own a car, don’t live IN the valley, don’t work in the Valley, don’t vote, and I’ve only skied Squaw a few weeks a year for a handful of years. How hard can it be to be on top of things as obvious as mass transportation?
Dear UA,
I’m certain the Olympics parked 9,000 cars and yes Alex wanted to pave the meadow for a parking lot. .
In 1970 7000 people were affected by the dysentry when the aquifer was polluted: how many cars were there then.
Are there fewer skiers and cars today? I don’t think so. Look at the carpark at AM when they open up Whitewolf or park “everywhere” and the fines are handed out along SV Rd when people can’t park on powder days, MLK and other days.
I’d like to know wheres the traffic studies or the rfid stats on visitations given Hedi’s people are asking FoSV instead of asking KSL. Yes, they’re asking FoSv – amaazing. What are the SOV fishing for?
Who’d go in the printed press with those light weight testimonials. Inflammatory to say, imo, that people don’t understand. Please fill us in.
The oped in the TDT says snowmaking is polluting, however it can be grade A recycled pottable water with less treatment than the drinking water in the aquifer. In fact it can be as pure as the snow on the roof of KSL’s building if KSL trap it, melt it, and pipe it into storage tanks. Ask SOV’s Gary Davis what he thinks about that idea, or wasn’t he at the DRC meeting either?
Alfred,
I feel sorry for SOV playing catch up.
The Political Fairness Commission fined those unregistered ‘moderators’ .
The County – despite palpable conflicts -wanted to broker a deal it’s in the middle of.
$220k for an expert.
Failed bus subsidies
Failed ideas left right and center
A water board saying in minutes that we might have been ‘misled’: where’s the correction the water president wanted the media to print btw?
secretive pipe deals.
a model that was Squat and lower than the real thing will be.
5000 people liked that model, we were told. Did KSL conduct exit interviews because we know who did.
Recent models are just ‘conceptual’.
A vague NOP or Spec Plan iirc didn’t pass the sniff test.
Questionable car numbers. (Why are SOV asking FosV for numbers? Can’t they get answers from the design team?)
No 3D or detailed memoradam of what’s really planned.
Employee housing will be dorms not 264 small bedrooms. Tsk Tsk.
Possible paid parking wrote SVSH to Lapco in one line tucked at the bottom on page 3.
8 miles of Sewers – over an aquifer – while the siesmology team at Meyers say the west shore is overdue for a 6′ to 12′ shift? Slosh slosh, plop plop, right in the drinking supply. And SOV doesn’t say a thing.
Gracious, the Feds press release was an eye opener on book keeping at HP.
The list goes on and on and on as to why the valley needs people like the IOV and FoSV and Sierra Watch to watch out.
They just want their freedom!
Davis has the temerity to say “some locals” don’t understand and don’t know, yet his co-testimonial advertorial colleague from SOV, Heidi,says she doesn’t attend meetings and can’t find notes that are on FOSV, IOV, SVPOA, UA, facebook news feeds, Sierra Sun/TDT and Moonshine, the Montana paper, the Miami newspaper, SF Chronicle etc etc.
If they’re just anti town because they can’t vote, they can write to Buckingham Palace and complain about that Thomas Jefferson, Ben Frankin and George Washington 🙂
Amazing thread full of useful information.
SOV are simply against incorporation probably, I think, because they’re not allowed to vote under legal democratic voting laws.
One advertorial by Sov says we should unite behind a group … that shows no leadership and no solutions … can’t vote …don’t say who’s in their coalition .. places contrived ‘concerns’ in the media .. and who will leave everything to water boards, Amerigas, Liberty, Loontown Water, a county and a big developer.
I’m glad Judi wrote in Moonshine Ink that she’d fight to stop the DRC being consigned, by the county, into a mere lapdog consultant for color schemes and other trite things.
Having a say – with teeth – is more important than merely rubbering stamping the first huge plan, isn’t it.
Hot off the press for you.
http://www.soleofskiing.com/post/modern-day-hero-dr-robb-gaffney/
Who are the true leaders in the Valley.
SOV certainly aren’t.
Gaffney is written up again as a modern day hero. A true leader. (I’d love to know his professional psych appraisal on So Obviously Vaccuos. 🙂
There is some good info in this thread, but it is hard to get to because you have to slog through the insults.
I asked questions and got good answers from the Friends of Squaw people without being condescending. I know that I am going to be virtually screamed at by some by asking this – Where can I find the minutes from the DRC meetings online? I found the agenda on the Placer County site, but no minutes. Where is the best place to find out what is being said at these meeting? And the MAC meetings? The only meetings I would be able to attend would be in July since I am not teaching and will be up in Squaw for the month.
SOV-IOV-FOSV-KSL—- There isn’t a simple formula for who is on which team. Forcing teams is a good way to turn people off of FOSV. Also, the FoSV are so heavily promoting IOV, it makes me leery to support FoSV. There are two different issues, development/incorporation and the lines are constantly blurring. People are connecting dots that don’t connect. I am SOV and I could be FOSV (still exploring this one) and I am a customer of KSL. My impression is that there are many people who have been aligned with SOV are also FOSV. Terry and I contacted KSL about IOV, they didn’t contact us. And, do I think that KSL does everything perfectly? No and I certainly write emails to suggest things or complain about things that can be improved on. They are probably just as sick of hearing from me over the past 4 years as you are of hearing my questions that you think are vacuous. There are assumptions being made about who is SOV.
In response to ??? rant on how “locals” and “voters” rule! Terry, my husband and I live about a 100 day a year in Squaw. Terry has owned our property for 15 years and skied Squaw (and recently Alpine with the dual pass) for 45 years. He started his career at 23 (some of you will remember) by running the beer and wine window for Mountain Host at Squaw. He is not a flight by night guy that just arrived in Squaw. I learned to ski at Alpine 18 years ago and then moved over to Squaw and now flex back and forth. So, I am a young pup in Squaw years but am interested enough to jump into knowing about what is going on. Terry also served on the Mutual Water Board for 8 years. Our neighbor, John Coyle has served on the mutual for a lot longer and is the current President. We are all your second class citizen second homeowners. Bunch of lazy second homeowners?
????-You have no more rights than we do to enjoy and decide what is right for the area. I love my neighborhood and half are 2nd homeowners. We don’t live In “Hidden Loot”, but I think it is a beautiful area. Don’t be such a local snob. That scowl is going to freeze on your face if you don’t lighten up.
Here are other questions about improving mass transit to Truckee and Tahoe City: Were the numbers better for mass transit using small shuttles like the one that they use to/from Alpine instead of the big bus?
Encouraging People to flow in and out of the village to Truckee and Tahoe City:
Did anyone give numbers about subsidizing taxis? Or encouraging a “Lift” (pink mustache) type system?
The price for a taxi to Truckee is really expensive. $40.
So are there or are there not long time skiers, people on water boards and lots of locals at the meetings with lots of info and reports, but there aren’t enough local people to run a town?
And there are some people in full page ads with ‘questions’ without looking at reports or notes of Minutes on FOSV’s pages or going to meetings or looking at links to documents on SVPOA, FoSV, IOV, Sierra Watch or UA or Moonshine?
KSL sends people to take notes too. The SVPSD are often there, and the planners and Judi or Barbara are always very willing to help. The SVPOA has links to some, and there are articles on water and things in papers like Moonshine Ink. Ask KSL for theirs. Do any SOV people go, perhaps they have reports to back up their ‘questions’?
If you think this is insulting, it’s not. It just looks like a bunch of non voting 2nd home owners are upset they can’t vote because of electoral laws.
“1/. Here are other questions about improving mass transit to Truckee and Tahoe City: Were the numbers better for mass transit using small shuttles like the one that they use to/from Alpine instead of the big bus? 2/. Encouraging People to flow in and out of the village to Truckee and Tahoe City:
Did anyone give numbers about subsidizing taxis? Or encouraging a “Lift” (pink mustache) type system?
The price for a taxi to Truckee is really expensive. $40.”
3500 people out of 3,100,000 potential passengers tells me it was a failed idea whether they rode mopeds or rickshaws.
$7,500,000 for bus metal divided by 3500 people is 75 limos they could buy.
$34m was the cost to upgrade the road near Homewood.
$30-100,000,000 for the pipes/cables.
Road widening is how much?
There’s more to mass transit than using small shuttles. Have a look at the cost of acquiring the new Ford e-buses, ask KSL where the Tesla change over batteries stationwill go – thry can change a battery faster than 90 seconds, and please look at threads on solar, babylonian gardens, rooftop gardens, solar, micro hydro and poo recyclng plants for snowmaking and saving lifts from wildfire.
With respect, SOV’s “questions” are so light weight and ‘alarmist’ it’s frightening.
Lol,
???? lives a few miles west of you I think.
Who said 2nd homeownera are lazy.
The info is there all over the web, in bars, lift lines, chairlifts, bbqs, meetings, minutes etc., and has been for a year or more.
I hope SOV are better informed than they’re making out.
@Heidi: They tried a voucher system this season I don’t think it made any difference but KSL will know, try asking them.
Did you try the bus (some on these forums did): it takes half a day to get to Truckee, shop and back, and that’s a large part of the average ski holiday.
Why not get the parking numbers and the car data from KSL rather than from FoSV.
The dots don’t connect? This is a jigsaw puzzle with regional pieces and local pieces that must fit together. Take parking and buses as an example. No open parking means buses are needed. Buses need money and land. Where’s the money and the land? Alternatively, gate the place and build Yellowstone Private Club.
FoSV says (below) they have the Minutes that Heidi was looking for.
(I think Heidi also confuses the crowdfunding with FOSV’s own fundraising. In this facebook release FOSV asks for checks payable to FoSV. . FoSV say they were formed in response to the development proposal, … IOV won’t be borne until lafco and voters approve it. What a PR disaster for SOV. The testimonial in the media says she’s concerned there’s not enough qualified people in the valley to run a town too, but I thought the planning lawyer was an expert in leading cases and I thought Van Nort ran bigger towns like Big Bear and Sun Valley. Sun Valley and Big Bear are pretty hard to miss, aren’t they?)
The Friends of Squaw Valley (FoSV) was formed in 2012 in response to the Squaw Valley Real Estate (SVRE) proposed village development. Our mission: Seek an improved and vibrant village that thrives economically while serving both locals and visitors yet retains aesthetics and community character.
What we have done so far:
Gathered input from community meetings, surveys, and feedback from friends and neighbors, allowing us to articulate our vision and values and to identify key elements of successful, sustainable Alpine ski villages; not to “just say no” to the developer and the County.
Hired three consultants (an architect, a land use planner, and a former county planner) to define the elements of successful ski villages that might be applied here in Squaw Valley.
Developed design guidelines for the proposed village that are continually being provided to the Design Review Committee to shape the Jan.2014 Revised Specific Plan.
Submitted responses to both the original 2012 Notice of Preparation (NOP) and the revised NOP earlier this year. Created a synopsis of individual comments to the NOP and placed it on the FoSV website http://www.friendsofsv.org
Produced minutes of meetings attended in order to keep the local and distant members of this community current (also on the FoSV website)
Helped effect a reduction in size of the SVRE proposal by over 30%.
What we will continue to do:
Gather input and develop additional design guidelines to make certain this (or any future) developer builds a welcoming, sensible, and successful village of which we can all be proud.
Critically analyze the draft EIR (due late this fall) to ensure community issues are considered, significant impacts are mitigated, and that all conditions of approval protect the community, its character, and its future.
Continue to hold periodic informational meetings for the FoSV membership and the community at large as various key milestones are approaching and significant events are occurring.
In addition to countless volunteer hours, to successfully accomplish our mission, we require knowledgeable paid professionals: social media consultants, EIR experts, ski village planners, and lawyers.
We need your financial support to continue our work. Please send your generous tax-deductible donation through our website donation page http://friendsofsv.org/donate/ or write a check to our fiscal agent, Sierra Nevada Alliance (with FoSV in the memo line) and mail to FoSV, PO Box 2823, Olympic Valley, CA 96146
Thank you….Friends of Squaw Valley
guys, saw this Desigfn immunity legal article by Jim Porter.
http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/opinion/11249309-113/county-design-dangerous-public
But my lawyer in LA ‘s newsletter said they’d won $4m in total because stairs weren’t to standard. She was 25% at fault and ended up pocketing $3m.
Best have a smarter local groupwatching out I say.
I’m glad Heidi joined in the discussion and I’m glad she’s looking for reports and notes. What a steep learning curve wouldn’t you say. I mean I recall Andy took Troy to Coloroado to show him how world class places ran (they could’ve read UA for free of course 🙂
My question is How does that roofline shed away without killing anyone?
Just asking. 108′ fall of sierra sement might hurt someone? I’d like to hear more at the DRC from Chevis about the gray water and “parapet storage” system of melted snow they recycle.
On the other hand, how do those flat roof tree top garden places survive big dumps of heavy sierra cement.
In short, why are KSL still conceptualising – that sounds like they make things up as they go along rather than tweaking things as reports are updated.
At the DRC the KSL gent from Georgia looked interested in the flat rooftop garden cafe idea, and with stepped ‘balconys with shrubbery, idea. I imediately thought of Geo Cloney in the rooftop adverisement for Al’s Coffee, didn’t you?
Would that flat roof cure shedding snow a whole 108’ down on people’s heads because the KSL HOA’s insurance premiums would, dear Dr Victor, be absolutely monsterous.
The memo I saw said the bus plan was topped up $100,000 by JMA, SVSH and NLTRA (I think) because it was unsustainable. I’m pretty sure SVSH wrote out a check for an extra $65,000 but maybe SOV can ask why FoSV thinks the bus scheme must be viable and proven before car parking can vanish.
Btw, IOV/FOSV or whoever want to be careful with paid buses, paid shuttles, and paid parkng. Those guys who came to Squaw make their $ from those “ideas”. We’re not talking $1 fares like the buses at Sth shore either.
Be vigilant.
Hey nice to see Heidi drop in here.
Those guys at LSC might have the bus transportation answers.
Btw the service was cut back, iirc, to 43 days this season and the metal were cut too. I can’t see it sustaining the sort of mass transit needs for a region
SOV should put up the hard data to support their ‘questions’.
This whole transit questioning has nothing to do with SOV. SOV just doesn’t want the incorporation. I ask these questions as a homeowner asking questions about the development and possible services to push for.
“Sov doesn’t want the incorporation”.
That’s ok, neither do some of the (100 I think) of “in doubt’ people in the TDT poll. ..but these founding fathers didn’t give votes to 2nd home owners. Besides, a good town can do things. Take as an example the money that’s going into Northstar’s glossy brochures. It goes from Squaw to a county body, on which resort reps sit, into things for Nstar’s 5 star places to showcase Nstar.
IOV would be the best to assess services as part of conditions backed up by performance guarantees.
Have you followed the suit against the directors of the failed bus scheme in SLT? You might like to: hare brained ideas are peppered all through the case, it’s very instructive.
With regards to Heidi’s comments
1. no one called the 2nd home owners ‘snobs’.
2. Subsidies for taxis? How long will that last is the question. Some think the subsidies will vanish as soon as the last condo is erected on the last inch of the 100 acres.
3. SOV says nothing about Disablity, Military, Employees, or whatever.
4. Who cares about IOV. It’s the development and the flow on effects that everyone lives with. Can you imagine if every private condo parkng bay was built on and then that bus plan stopped (as it did).
I think SOV were mad to place those transparent advertorials.
The seat 8 and all the suitcases and skis fit in the back on 2 ‘shelves’. Easy. There’s an e-model btw.
Has anyone seen SOV come up with ideas? I haven’t.
Incidentally IOV aren’t born yet and the SOV must be terrified of bogeymen for some reason.
– Herod.
The nice SOV lady should read the tdt online and then she’d know the night rider saved money and stopped March 23 2014.
Did she read the UA Survey results about the need for co-ordinated closing dates so the public can plan holidays??
Did she read the reasons why the bus scheme people themselves thought the pilot scheme failed, and did she notice there was no cure of the same old same old problem a year later.
grrrr.
Come to Sth Shore and ride the Bluego and their Nightrider. and check the Reno Airport to Heavenly Special. (Where did they find these cloistered SOV people?)
TAHOE CITY, Calif. — Due to economic impacts of the mild winter season, the Night Rider service has ended a week earlier than scheduled.
The Truckee/North Tahoe Transportation Management Association ended the bus service March 23 due to the final budget coming in higher than expected and a 13 percent ridership decrease from last winter.
About $4,000 in savings was needed to meet budget, with the reduction saving $10,200, said Jaime Wright, TMA’s executive director.
While funds could have been recouped by cutting some operation days, it didn’t make sense to stop the service mid-week, she said. The amount saved will be rolled over into next year’s program.
The service will resume June 26, with no operational changes.
“We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and look forward to bringing the Night Rider service back in June,” Wright said in a statement.
It will continue providing free daily transportation this summer from 6:30 p.m. to 2 a.m., depending on the route. Routes include Squaw to Crystal Bay, Crystal Bay to Squaw Valley, Northstar to Crystal Bay, and Tahoma to Tahoe City.
To learn more, visit http://www.laketahoetransit.com.
Sov should look at how big lawyers for big groups, like cashed up eco groups, run an action for a small group against a big group.
. Denny Crane wins all his cases too.
check the hikes in the water board http://www.svpsd.org/pdffiles/Agenda%20Package/E-1_3.25.14_MinutesDRAFT.pdf
The DRC heard there should be gray water recycling – its underway.
I think it’s the ‘melted rooftop’ water idea we read on UA last year: but the power bills will be big.
The DRC heard about dorms for J1s – Hosea says they’re building dorm style. We hear that here last year too.
KSL don’t want the emergency water pipe, but the water board says they need it.
the pipe looks like it indeed part sewer – some said no that’s not so – and it’ll be over an aquifer where a leak or seisimic rupture could put people in hospital like the 7000 people in March 1970.
the WSA will be reviewed by an independent firm for an independent opinion. (Why???? I thought the county can be trusted?
Mark,
Why are SOV worried about IOV when these charge increases would make a multinational company green with envy?
Please ask SOV why they embrace the ‘wonderful’ water boards and spurn the IOV.
What is the name of the audit commission which oversees these price rises.
For how many years was water ‘leaking’ in huge quantities somewhere they could not locate as I thought they have cameras to help find leaks and blockages.
I also know there are rfid style sensors that can detect water usage whereby the user is charged for every drop: no forgetting you see, no mistakes. Were they really losing 25% a year and couldn’t find it. Amazing don’t you think.
I’m not surprised KSl wish to form a water board which they can control. Please interview SOV and find out what their real problem with IOV is. By all accounts the IOV people are beyond reproach as per Dr Gaffney’s testimonial and I’d like to see them contract proper law enforcement and a great town manager and accountant like Van Nort. A few more White Hats in town is a good thing isn’t it.
Dear UA,
Despite 100 days in the valley, some testimonial people haven’t been to a meeting or read notes on the net??? I can’t believe anyone would go in the press and put their name to their ‘concerns’.
SOV’s testominials are, well, unfathomable.
1. They want a better way to unite every group: what do they suggest? How about FoSV and IOV with their 700+ facebook friends in the Valley and the region and beyond?
2. They want these groups to work together. Yet I don’t know anyone who’s seen them at Meetings that are open to the general public, and are advertised well in advance. Are SOV sitting quietly at home rather than airing suggestions? They have a amazing architect, but where’s the solutions? Where are suggested ideas that might be half ok if not perfect?
3. IOV could be somehow “financially damaging to vital programs”. How? What Programs? Who says its vital that $ goes to Northstar for glossy Northstar brochures in shiny Northstar 5 star suites??? Follow the money trial I say. Indeed all these “could be’s” are Iffy fluff.
4. IOV could be “fiscally harmful to the Tahoe Basin ultimately reducing public services to other communities. Hmm. Guess what. OV’s taxes are paying for a 20 mile $100m sewer about 70 miles away. Talk about helping other communities for 50 years! It’s our turn.
5. One testimonial wants financial viability and adequate infrastructure. Hey Liberty and Amerigas and Lohonton are charging homeowners aren’t they for great shiny new pipes and cables. The Water board wants 11% and 15% more. Liberty builds a 11% ROI for stockholders into the price for power. Come on guys, tell us again how the baby infant IOV will reek havoc on the world as we know it.
The SOV sound long on rhetoric. to me.
As for the posts about mass transit, pleeeeze. Piffle and drivel and half baked “solutions” from people who don’t speak at meetings despite spending 100 days in the Valley. They must’ve missed 6 to 8 meetings.
Please Save Olympic Valley from Save Olympic Valley.
Jeez, Facebook says resorts are charging $17 a bus passenger and they’re charging employees to park! What’s scarey is those same resort run Legoland and theme parks in the US and they were talking to SV!
Where do SOV etc stand on making parking free for resort workers who live o/side the valley and in the dorms that Chevis spoke about in the minutes and in the meeting? Attached is a letter their employees are signing, Is this a solution to parking -Wirth mentioned paid parking in his letter to Lafco, and your friends at SOV mentioned expensive ‘Preferred Parking’ was an idea. Scare Off Visitors should check out the 40% fall in visitation rates all season down there.
What do your businesses in the chamber think about them apples.
Mount Hotham Resort Management Board
PO Box 188
Bright VIC 3741
mhar@mthotham.com.au
Att: Jim Atteridge
Deborah Spring
Ron Mason
Nicole Feeney
Tim Piper
Helen Moran
Peter Hagenauer
Debra Goodin
Dear Members of the Board,
Re: Increased costs to Hotham staff car parking permits for 2014
Thank you for being proactive and making a statement in response to the concerns presented by many mountain staff on Facebook. Your response was posted to the group page on 25 April 2014.
In relation to that statement, please take note of, and respond to the following concerns and proposals:
Concern: your quote “We do recognise the value staff add to the visitor experience, …”
This is a gross undervaluation of mountain staff. In truth STAFF ARE ESSENTIAL, not just for the visitor experience but for the function of the resort. We all work (paid or voluntary) for businesses that are INTEGRAL to the operation of Hotham Alpine Resort as a destination and a community.
Concern: limited staff housing /accommodation options
Staff are essential and accommodation ‘on mountain’ is limited so many staff must live off mountain, either in Dinner Plain, Harrietville, Omeo or even further (it is crucial that these staff are available, often at short notice, for busy times). The positive side of staff living off mountain is that more ‘on mountain’ beds are available for visitors – which in turn generates more business and income for all.
Concern: staff resort entry permits
The staff need to be able to park their vehicles, a point you do acknowledge and have provided the option of purchasing a staff car pass. You make two car passes available – the only difference being where the pass applicant sleeps while working at Hotham – either within the resort or out of the boundaries of the resort.
“Staff Resort Entry Permits for season 2014 are $150.00 for on mountain resident
staff and $250.00 for staff working at Mount Hotham but living out of the resort.”
Can you please explain to me why you discriminate against staff residing outside the resort?
“We encourage staff that do work at Mount Hotham whom reside on either
side of the resort to utilise other services, i.e. the Alps Link which travels from Omeo to
Bright and vice versa as well as the Dinner Plain bus in which staff season bus
permits can be purchased.”
The Alps Link service is NOT an adequate form of commuting to work. This service is wonderful for off duty staff to access the areas off mountain for supplies or services, but the timetable is not appropriate to get staff to work on mountain with its limited timetable clearly designed for other purposes.
Concern: staff residing further afield than Dinner Plain have no adequate alternative to driving.
In the case of staff residing at Dinner Plain, the timetable of the Dinner Plain bus was inadequate and unreliable in the 2013 season. I understand that some of these issues may have been addressed by The Alpine Shire Council through the 2014 service tender process with some funding again provided by MHSC for their staff to get to the resort for work. Issues such as poor timetables and cancellations mean that they are required to use their own vehicle, even offering lifts to stranded visitors at Dinner Plain bus stops.
Concern: staff season bus permit
You refer to a staff season bus permit for the Dinner Plain bus – this is the first time I have heard of such a permit, so if this is a new initiative, then it has not been communicated to return staff by their management. Last year staff were able to obtain passes with a number of trips available – not a season pass. Could you please confirm how this is available and ensure we all get this information?
Concern/Proposal: car parks and staff vehicles
If MHRMB is serious about reducing the amount of staff cars in car parks on mountain – why not offer free and regular bus transport to and from Dinner Plain for staff? Maybe a long term (season) car park for staff in the Dinner Plain area?
We are in agreeance of your statement: “… that Mt Hotham has limited car parking spaces, and we would like to offer the parking spaces that we do have to our visitors as our number one priority.”
However, I think there is a double standard between your statement and what is observed by visitors and staff in Corral Car Park. MHRMB staff vehicles – passenger and utility vehicles in premium spaces. Surely MHRMB staff and management could comply with their own parking policy. Even the Ski Patrol Ambulance is not in practical parking space with drive in – drive out access. One would think that safety would come first. Perhaps some more thought can be given to better use of underutilised reserved parking spaces throughout the resort. These are often observed as empty by guests who raise awkward questions.
It appears that the Whitey’s car park is being extended, which is great to see. However, the Whiskey Flat overflow car park is currently completely covered in stockpiled aggregate. Will this car park be back in action by the start of the season 2014 as the overnight staff car park?
Perhaps the shuttle bus could be extended to include Loch Car Park? There are many parking spots available here that has no link to the village apart from on skis for guests.
Visitors and staff last season observed a reduction in available parking at Wire Plain with allocation of areas of the car park for snow play activities. Will this continue in the 2014 season?
As you can see from the points above there are a number of alternatives to increase the car parking available to visitors without penalising staff financially. The ongoing erosion of working and living conditions for mountain staff is leading to a shortage in skilled, knowledgeable, experienced staff. Andrew Dean, a former MHSC staff member puts it like this:
“Most seasonal mountain staff lose money working in Australian resorts. Numerous studies have been done on staff retention in the Snowsports industry with consistent recommendations; affordable housing, competitive wage arrangements, creation of positive inclusive communities and professional and accountable resort management. Behaviour like that of the RMB and its affiliates, directly correlates to why staff turnover and the resultant skills shortages and product erosion are rampant in the Australian ski industry.”
Proposal: reduce proportion of increase in staff carpark permit
In light of the disharmony and angst of many, many staff and the number of alternatives for increased visitor parking spaces I urge you to review the exorbitantly increased cost of the Staff Resort Entry Permits.
I propose that the increase is restricted to a maximum of 3% on last year’s cost from $95 in 2013 to a reasonable $97.85 in 2014 – this is on top of the massive increase staff already paid in 2013 from $65 in 2012.
3% annually would bring this increase in line with CPI and The Alpine EBA, under which many of us work.
Discrimination against those who reside ‘off mountain’ should cease totally and consideration of the non-resident permit being abolished should be addressed.
All staff should pay the same permit cost no matter where they reside as all staff are an essential part of Hotham Alpine Resort – particularly in view of the inadequate alternatives despite MHRMB claim to otherwise.
I look forward to your response to the concerns, questions and proposals.
Sincerely
Nowhere does the word ‘free’ appear in anything I read or heard from KSL at the County or Base Camp or the Presentation or any on the IOV or DRC meetings. Hmmm.
I also recall KSL saif they didn’t mean to send out a sublimnal message to the effect that day skiers weren’t wanted. Please spare us. Developers of a mega project don’t make mistakes like that, surely?
Let’s hope the DRC ties down loose ends.
a bunch who work at another resort in Tahoe hear they’re worried about the ‘ideas’ that your people were hearing at a resort management conference. The DRC and the FoSv and SOV need to be vigilant.
Yup. the managerfest was on the same day as google were at the R@SC so I missed it. SOV should catch the bus and learn a few things. For example, did you know that at SLT the managers and despatchers ride and talk to the customers! At SV, where are the managers and execs? Miles away, that’s where.
If you follow the sth shore papers, the absence of free parking near the gondolas is hurting tourism by shifting parking to the Cal Lodge, Boulder and Stagecoach Day Lodges (ie away from small businesses). SOV members should support IOV FOSV people on whatever common ground they share (rather than publish those weak advertisements).
http://www.moonshineink.com/tahoe-events/incorporate-olympic-valley-monthly-community-meeting-0
There you go, a nice open invitation to everyone in the region and the bay area too.
Pity the SOV people in my HOAs go home at 4pm or work late in the office, but they can always read up on websites and follow UA and Moonshine or facebook links.
eagan wrote a history book on the formation truckee …and how it overcame $32m of road debt! SOV should bring their experts along and hear about good governance.
Got my moonshine ink invitation via fb to the iov meeting.
Can you make sure that people declare conflicts, like consultancies.
hi, great thread like Hors said.
btw this http://www.laketahoenews.net/2014/05/raw-sewage-spills-tahoe-keys-marina/ made me think
Who’s going to police these 3 water boards if locals with vested interests are on the boards? Isn’t the loonton board in charge of 8 miles of pipes, and a sewer line, how’s it all work. who’s up who, and why are they against a local town with a expert town planner, expert lawyers and a seasoned manager, Van Nort?
Gaffney’s sense of smell is pretty good too.
Are the ones in Hidden Loot Lane? 🙂
Is this your pension fund
“Ernst & Young LLP, the former auditor for Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. agreed to settle claims by California Public Employees’ Retirement System which purchased more than $700 million in Lehman bonds before the investment bank collapsed in 2008. CalPERS, the largest public employee retirement system in the U.S., said it had reached a pact with Ernst & Young over allegations that the auditor helped Lehman conceal its precarious financial condition prior to its September 2008 bankruptcy”
What a thread!
SoV don’t look very credible, and they want to unite the community behind them. lol 🙂
Frontier added flights from Sd to Reno from $69 iirc. There’s more cars from Hertz, Avis, Dollar, Thrifty and Enterprize. AA/US Airways added flights from Dallas FW and other major hubs: more cars. Tahoe-Truckee is revamping itself too, and they’ll want cars for suitcases and ski bags. Can you carry suitcases on Tart? I’m told no. Amtrak: technically you can’t carry on ski bags. Counties (plural) and dep pocketed resorts couldn’t justifty the bus program, and cut it to 43 days out of 365! It stopped: will tourists walk over May-Away? Looking forward to hearing some soutions, but so far the DRC are right to question the numbers. Sov need glasses. This isn’t rocket science!
Heidi asks if the 10,000 takes acct of those already living in homes. Do the homeowners and condo people walk to the lifts or drive? I’ve seen cars drive up hidden loop lane rather than walk from Grahams. Look at the cars at the Meetings: they drive and park, not walk. KSL want shuttles in the village: great that’ll help, but when will the beancounters cut services, hours etc. What about the Prep-load of kids who’ll be on the road in cars soon. Look at the parking tickets for cars parked on the shoulder in desperation after a long drive!
Perhaps someone should run full page ads about concerns with SOV.
Thankfully KSL are smart enough to work WITH other businesses in the region. Andy (like Robb) is a leader however I’d say Andy is let down by something, someone, dunno. It comes back to little things, ..like reading UA to realize they better turn Roundhouse ‘on’, keep the OLD dark green logo, and cater for team kids who’ll buy clunker cars soon.
That too is where IOV fails. Every one of SOV’s objections was coming a year ago. IOV should’ve worked on its own short sightedness. Gracious, it took them ‘forever’ to arrange one party, not go to Festivals with 30,000 people to survey as they filed in AT&T Stadium, etc etc. They never whipped up 3D or counted cars as they sat in front of the Post Office collecting a (mere) 300 signatures: and allowed 30,000 people to walk into festivals without a blurb on carpark refugees defecting to Sugarbowl. Gosh, they never walked up to Andy, collared him, and sat him on his bum for a chat. In the interim, those who spoke sensibly got some results, like Fountain says in his advert-testimonial. SOV Members succeeded with sense, to a degree, eg freeing up parking over easements.
Can’t wait to see them sit down long before a Judge raps them all on the knuckles
I just completed a facebook brain test. I think so far out of the box I can’t find the box! Is that why I think Silly Olde Valleyers shouldn’t put ex treasuers up as finance wizards as the SEC Media Unit pushes ‘print’ on their puters 🙂
Gotta fly!
Harry,
it’s like the paint set after a few tots smear the paint pallette.
Blurred lines, as the song says.
Mix all them colors and what color do you get. Blaah color that’s what.
Mon Deu
Squark Vallee is THE internationale world class resort – the sign says so!
Dave wrote:
‘Expect a well-orchestrated and well-funded PR blitz from KSL.’
Fail fail fail, Dave.
Well funded it was,
But it wasn’t well orchestrated – the SEC did a better job!
and it was a PR fizzer. Pfffft, like a skyrocket that backfires. All people remember is some Silly Olde Valleyers Saving Our Valuations
Bad luck Dave. 🙂
Mark,
Look what’s happened,
You go on holidays for a week, you miss a dump, and those SOV people are shot down in flames!
Avoid Spring break I’m tellin’ ya 🙂